An interview with Robert Mottram

PM:   Robert thank you for agreeing to be interviewed for our disability heritage project.  Could you tell us a little bit about your early life, where were you born and when?

RM:   I was born in 1962 in Malaysia, which is quite unusual, but came back when I was 2 so I don’t remember it at all, though in 1990 I did go back to Singapore which is an island off Malaysia and we stayed there for a few weeks, my sister was working out there at the time and obviously I didn’t remember it but it brought back memories for my parents.

PM:   And what do you remember of childhood? Were you a disabled child?

RM:   My condition is such that I was diagnosed with flat feet and it developed from that into a very slow deteriorating medical condition. But I look at my disability consciousness, as I call it, starting from about 1994 when I really became aware of the discrimination and the lower standards that disabled people experience and I really became much more active in terms of disability politics from that date.

So yes I suppose I was always ‘disabled’ as it were, with an impairment and that gradually got worse and worse over the years. I remember back years ago the Mobility Allowance that went into DLA  which is now becoming PIP, I applied for it and got it but I was only a child, I remember that time and seeing how things have developed since then.

Clearly I’m glad I’m living now with the level of impairment I’ve got, compared to thirty years ago, because the aids and adaptations that are available and of course Direct Payments, clearly enable me to live the life that I do.

PM:   Can I ask you about your childhood in the 1960s, what school did you go to?

RM:   I went to a mainstream school, all the way through, although interestingly when it came up for ‘o’ levels they were conscious that I had a slight impairment of the hand and couldn’t write as fast and did ask me whether I wanted an amanuensis to write down answers to questions in ‘o’ levels. I didn’t, I was ok, but looking back it was done quite sensitively which was good. I then went to two colleges, interestingly they didn’t pick up anything like that, not that I needed it at that time, although some lectures were in rooms that were a long way for me to get to, I wasn’t using a wheelchair in those days.

So I certainly benefited, no question, in going to mainstream as opposed to special, certainly the quality of education I received certainly I imagine was much more superior. But there’s no question having left college I experienced discrimination being a disabled person by not getting a job because of my impairment. The classic example there being a firm called SGB, Scaffolding Great Britain, I don’t know if they are still going, but I went for a couple of interviews in their corporate headquarters but when it came to it they said “well you can’t have the job because you might have to go to building sites and you won’t be able to cope with that”.

Of course they couldn’t do that now, they would have to make reasonable adjustments but then they could do it. And that just gives you one example of how disabled people experience poor treatment and bad experiences, based on prejudice, based on a lack of willingness to make changes in the job. But as things turned out, my life could have taken a greatly different course than it did in the end. I mean I wouldn’t be living in Leamington Spa.

PM:   Do you remember the date of that?

RM:   It must have been the early 80s. Probably about 1982. I moved here in about 86 and it was a few years before then, probably 82 0r 83.

PM:   And was that a shock to you at the time or had you come to expect that kind of attitude?

RM:   I’d come to expect it because that wasn’t the only example of experiences that I’d had, I was becoming very frustrated and annoyed and of course that annoyance turned into anger which didn’t do me any good at all. But I think the 80s were the beginnings of the Disability Movement, not that I was anywhere near that aware then, but looking back and reading that’s when UPIAS started, the Union of the Physically Impaired Against Segregation and the whole disability debate started and I was receiving the lower standards as part of that, not that I was part of the developing of it but I think people did start to realise that disabled people were at the bottom of the heap as it were when it came to employment, service provision and that sort of thing.

PM:   You’ve mentioned about the development of your own consciousness as a disabled person and the social model of disability, can you revisit that again for us and tell us when did that start and what was the context of your own thinking changing?

RM:   I suppose one could go back to the International Year of Disabled People which was in 1981. I was on a local committee for that and I didn’t really realise what was going on because I was quite young at the time but then as a result of that a Phab club was formed, an unfortunate name but at the time I got into that sort of social side. I did that for a few years and then I moved up here and one way to get to know people better was to join the Phab club here and for a few years it was really good – I had good experiences and even to this day I’ve got friends that I made then and as a bi-product of that I went on a rally in Trafalgar Square in 1994 which was a watershed for disabled people and the political pressure was so great then that the DDA was passed in 95. So it’s been a combination of factors really, starting way back in the early 1980s.

PM:   You worked for the Coventry Voluntary Services Council for a while, was that in the early 90s?

RM:   Prior to working for the CVSC, my first job was working for a market research company doing some desk research and then I worked for the Council of Disabled People (CDP) on a part time basis and Disability West Midlands on a part time basis. But it was clear that the job I was doing at CDP was pretty much a temporary job, it was only going to last for a year and wasn’t particularly useful but DWM offered me a full time job with the training. The training aspect came out of what I was getting involved with at CVSC actually, a group were formed through European money to learn all about training and aspects of it and that was quite good for me because obviously I was able to develop it and use it in my job. Hence the offer from DWM.

PM:   And this was Disability Equality Training, as opposed to Disability Awareness Training? So you were there at a fairly important time when the DDA came in, what’s your recall of the difference of these two different types of training?

RM:   Well I won’t bore you with the specifics but basically, Disability Equality takes a barrier approach to the whole issue of the focus on what the external environment is doing, be it attitudinal, organisational or physical and from a practical perspective looks at ways of improving the life experiences of a disabled person. The impairment based, or Disability Awareness is very much focussed on the individual, looking at their impairment or medical condition and looking at therapies and how to improve the individual. Not saying that medical intervention isn’t useful, but getting on with your life is what it’s all about when you’re out there in the big wide world competing.

Of course, fundamental to this is delivery. It’s very important to add weight to the messages being given that the deliverer needs to be a disabled person. Having said that, the individual must have the technical expertise and ability to deliver a course, to formulate and craft a course, because I’ve seen it and I’m sure you have many times, just wheeling a disabled person out there in front of an audience can do more damage than benefits.

For a few years that worked but of course now the equalities agenda has been stretched so much, with the Equality Act, people aren’t fully realising that disabled people do still experience disadvantage when they go to their local shop to buy a can of beans or whatever it may be. I think the personal service has been lost somewhat, which is a shame but so be it.

PM:   So, remembering back to the DDA in 1995, do you remember much of a change? Was it a watershed?

RM:   The passing of the Act was a watershed certainly. But it took many years to see any discernible change in terms of accessing your local services and possibly employment. My big issue was and still is, of course some disabled people need support to help them get a job, no question there however, what I would say is that a number of firms don’t deliver on their social responsibility in terms of employing disabled people whatever impairment they have.

I’m sure that you know and I know lots of disabled people that are as productive as their non-disabled peer, given the appropriate support if they need it. There’s still an attitudinal barrier there when it comes to employment and also delivering a service, unfortunately many shops don’t consider supporting their staff as particularly important so they are not delivering a quality service that an older or disabled customer should have, like their non-disabled peer, and when you think that disability is an issue that will affect all of us at some stage in our life and the fact that the number of disabled people and older people is increasing all the time, it’s very short sighted not to do that.

So going back to what you asked, yes there have been improvements but it’s still very, very slow.

PM: In terms of your own life, we’re now in 2013, do you think things have changed? Thinking back to the early 90s, that’s 23 years, during that time has your experience as a disabled person in society changed and in what way?

RM:   Well as I’m older I like to think I’m wiser, more experienced, so in terms of that …yes, it changed for the better. Certainly as my impairment has increased, I’ve got more aids and adaptations, twenty years ago I wouldn’t have had those because things are much more updated. Basic things like the car I’ve got, that’s tremendous, I wouldn’t have had that five years ago, certainly not ten years ago, similarly the wheelchair I use, things are developing all of the time.

Also, Direct Payments, money that the local authority gives to the individual disabled person to organise their PA support, their care support, I wouldn’t have had that. That came into effect in about 1996 but didn’t really get going until 1998, so there are a number of things that have happened that have certainly been a real improvement for disabled people living in society.

The big problem now of course is the closure in the next few years of the Independent Living Fund and that’s going to hit quite a few disabled people quite hard, depending on where they live will determine what support they get from their local authority.

PM:   If you were a politician, what would be your three priorities to improve the lives of disabled people in Britain in the next ten years?

RM:   Wow! That’s a biggie. Well certainly the whole issue of social care, which Andrew Dilnot looked into a couple of years ago and the government have come forward with some proposals for a financial cap. That is really important to look at.

Direct payments, looking at the porosity around the country of the take-up and the quality of support given to people going that way.

Education, that’s very important, still they’re hanging on to special schools, which I know for some highly impaired individuals may be thought to be the way forward, but I still maintain that fully inclusive schools are the way forward. And also employment, looking at ways of maybe not fining, but cajoling and persuading or something in regard to employers to make them see the light that employing disabled people won’t make them go bust.

And maybe more education within schools about disability and what it means. I know that in ‘citizenship’, all school children will have older grandparents so they experience it all the time, maybe not from the perspective that we know, but certainly it would help them develop and mature as equal minded citizens when they leave school.

PM:   Robert have you had any role models or are there any individuals, which may include people you have known or people you have never actually met, that have influenced you and stand out in your life?

RM:   I suppose from the disability academic side you’ve got the usual ones like Mike Oliver and Vic Finkelstein who died recently, and Collin Barnes, theoretical people. One has to question at times that theory over arches the practicality. From a personal level and a local level I have a very dear friend I have known for about twenty years and have a lot of respect for when one looks at the degree of impairment she’s got compared to what a ‘normal’ in inverted commas, life she has.

And I am a firm believer that a lot of that comes from how you are brought up. The influences you have when you’re a child are extremely important. And also the support network, I know that some people like to lead a solitary life which is fine but when you are a disabled person, whether you like it or not you do need support, whether it’s from professionals or from friends and family, how that support is given is tremendously important to how you develop and make out in the world.

PM:   I want to ask you to expand on that slightly. For instance what advice would you give to parents of a disabled child. Are there any key bits of advice you might give, I’m thinking of the RADAR publication a few years ago called “If only I’d known that 12 months ago” or someone becoming a disabled person later in their lives. Do you have any advice you’d give them?

RM:   It’s very difficult in terms of the parents of a disabled child, because emotionally they are going through a tremendous battle in their own mind, but I suppose it depends on where they’re at on the line of inclusion really. But also on how ‘bad’ and I use that word advisedly the impairment is that the child has. Obviously when one acquires an impairment later on in life, there’s a whole host of issues that one has to consider depending on where you are in your own life cycle. If you’ve got a job, a house, a family, all of those things you’ve got to take into consideration and the support you have then clearly is important.

But a very common factor that all of us experience is denial, one will deny one’s impairment, “Oh I don’t need this, I don’t need that” but sometimes you do and you’ve got to accept it and so how that support is given is crucial. But of course for a newly disabled person there is a whole host of things you’ve got to be aware of that you can’t possibly know right from day one. It’s only going to come over a period of months and possibly years actually. I may know about physical impairment but I don’t have a hope in hell of knowing what it’s like to be deaf or have a hearing or visual impairment. Only people that experience that will know fully what it’s like and the little tips they need to know to get on with their lives.

I wouldn’t dream of giving a parent any advice as I’m not a parent. Very difficult but even more difficult with a disabled child. All I would say is bring them up not smothered in cotton wool but bring them up like you would any other child, give them the support when they need it but don’t make exceptions and treat them special because they’re not special.

 

PM:   Robert, I want to ask you, has your experience of health care changed over the last five decades?

RM:   I think it has to a positive perspective and maybe that’s matched both in terms of me getting older, more grumpy and more assertive, but also the way society’s changed in terms of making sure the patient is communicated with. I know for many times, doctors and consultants are blamed for not including the patient, well I personally think, having been in hospital a few months ago, that what they’re expected to do is enormous and they don’t do such a bad job really. Obviously the communication is still the key issue but I think it isn’t all one way, it’s up to the individual disabled person and / or person with an illness to inform themselves of what they can do and what they need to be aware of, to help the doctor diagnose, to help the doctor provide as much support as they are able. So I think my experience of the medical profession has got better, knowing the enormous pressures they are under a lot of the time.

PM:   Robert, in terms of historic landmarks for disabled people and within the disabled people’s movement, what do you think have been the key events and what’s the trend? Where are we at now do you think?

RM:   I think a few years before the DDA came about, things were very positive and five to seven years after the DDA we of course had the DRC, the Disability Rights Commission, I feel things were being done and we were steaming ahead. Ever since the EHRC, the Equality and Human Rights Commission came about and the Equality Act, the disability element of the equality agenda has been dissipated and compromised. I’m a firm believer that people feel “oh, we’ve done disability so let’s move on to something else”. Well yes there have been improvements but there is still more that can be done and should be done and I’m afraid it’s still not there.

For example, I’m a member of the Warwickshire Police Independent Disability Advisory Group, all police forces have these things and I’ve just been sent a draft policy of hate crime, which covers against straight people and so forth and the issues around disability convey no understanding of the Social model at all. Which is rather disheartening that it’s just wheeled out time and time again with no intention from my perspective of a willingness to fully understand or appreciate the generally accepted view of disability, for example, there are questions like “do you have a disability?” …things like that. It’s disheartening really that that happens and it’s an indication of how far we still have to go before we can fully expect and achieve full equality in whatever shape or form or whatever area we look at.

PM:   And do you think that reflects society’s wider understanding of the Social model and do you think when, every few months it seems, somebody trots out “this is the alternative to the Social model of Disability”? What’s your view on that? Do you think the Social model, as some people would say, has become obsolete and we need something else?

RM:   Well first of all your question is “is that common place?” Well it probably is in terms of people fully understanding the difference between disability, impairment and a medical condition, they’ve probably never given it a lot of thought. In terms of “do we need something more?” maybe the Social model needs refining, yes I think it does, in terms of being a disabled person it’s a complex issue. The main elements of the barrier approach are still good, however there needs to be a sensitivity there and a development of the understanding that every impairment is different, every person is different, how they deal with their impairment, what support structures they have, all these things need to be taken into consideration for the disabled person to fully function in their lives.

So yes, the Social model still has validity, however it needs to be developed somewhat and I think people delivering courses or engaging with this, use it as a tool. They don’t use it as a be-all and end-all, they use it as the basis from which to develop their arguments in any discussions that they have.        

PM:   I wanted to ask you about the Paralympics last year in London. A big thing was made of the change of attitudes and the ‘legacy’ of the Paralympics and now 12 months later there has been research recently published by Scope saying that 80% of disabled people are saying it didn’t make any difference to their lives twelve months on and 20% saying their lives have got worse. Do you think this big historic event in the UK has made any difference to the lives of disabled people?

RM:   Personally I haven’t noticed any difference myself. Not that I’m particularly sporty. What I would say is that during the time, certainly the consciousness of people was raised and their attitude, one would have thought, would be better. But then its waned inevitably and talk to disabled people of course over-arching all of this is, not only media representation of disabled people, headlines like “scrounger”, we live in an electronic age but the papers are still enormously powerful in terms of giving people the attitudes that they hold.

But also how the Universal Credit, Bedroom Tax, DLA changing into PIP, all of this is a great worry to disabled people and why you’re getting a certain percentage saying their lives are worse. So it’s a complex issue and an easy answer is difficult. All I can talk about from a personal perspective is that I haven’t really noticed anything but I’m the exception to the rule probably because I’m assertive and confident enough to be able to challenge discriminatory behaviour so not necessarily experiencing it. But people that don’t have the capacity to do that, one’s got to worry about.

So yes, at the time it was great, it was reported to be one of the most successful Paralympics there has been, which is superb, but talk to me in five years time as one wonders whether disabled people will still be experiencing the discriminatory bad attitudes that they do unfortunately.

I’m afraid with special schools and segregation still going on, I don’t hold out too much hope of that being fulfilled. I think the most important thing here is supporting the disabled person, whether young or old, with appropriate, non-biased support so they are able to play a full and active part in society.

 

PM:   Robert we’ve talked quite a lot about disability, so I want to ask you some other questions which disability may or may not impact on. Holidays, what’s your idea of the best holiday or the best place you’ve been to in the world?

RM:   I was fortunate enough to go to Singapore in 1990 and then went on to Malaya. I look back on that and think it was an amazing experience and I was very fortunate to do that. Of course now, with the impairment that I’ve got flying is another, I won’t say impossible, but to get all things working properly is at times a real challenge so I don’t tend to fly now.

What is really important is to do your homework, check out accessibility to make sure that the people in a hotel know what you’re talking about because people’s concept of accessibility differs enormously. Also where you’re going to, do you want luxury which is fine, or are you willing to slum it and spend that much less, that’s up to you. What I would say though, in my experience is that unfortunately you have to pay quite a lot of money to get accessibility in hotels and where you stay otherwise you won’t get it which is unfortunate, that’s the way of life. I’m not a beach bum, although I like to be warm but I like to do things on holiday rather than just lounge around doing nothing. So being active is important but wherever I go I still have the issue of accessibility.

PM:   Robert you are a great lover of music, who are your favourite groups and artists?

RM:   I like Mark Knopfler and Dire Straits and I’m also into Country music. Many people have an outmoded view on Country music, it’s quite contemporary these days I can assure you. But I also like to listen to Classical music. Music in my view is very mood dependent and depending what mood you’re in will influence the music you want to listen to at any particular time. So quite any eclectic mix, a bit of jazz maybe sometimes, although said that I’m not into the real esoteric punk bands. If something takes my fancy I’ll listen to it.

PM:   Any other interests or passions in life?

RM:   I’m really into cars. I’m always looking at different models of car. I like Formula One, I know for some people that’s tremendously boring, but for me I always find the political side of it tremendously fascinating and I don’t think people realise the technology going into Formula One cars, the spin-off comes down to mainstream cars, so it isn’t all wasted.

I also try to keep informed about the political side of things, whether we like it or not, politics enters into everything and it’s good to be aware of what’s happening in that regard, whether one exercises one’s democratic right or not. I think it’s very important, particularly as disabled people because disability is a political subject. To ensure that we have our say as much as possible about whatever’s happening.
 

 

 

 

PM:   Robert, thank you very much for being interviewed.

RM:   My pleasure.